ONE字幕组
该影片中包含的一些画面和观点 可能会引起您的不适
不适
日本在2014年之前 收藏儿童色情作品是合法的
儿童色情作品 合法
法律已经改变
但是性化儿童仍然存在
儿童
史黛丝·杜丽： 日本未成年色情产业调查
ONE字幕组诚心译制
翻译：雪莉珊
翻译：清浅
翻译：七七
翻译：枣糕
翻译：Y
特效&总监：Wurmbea
压制：杀手不太冷
东京这座城市 随时都会颠覆你的感官 Tokyo is like an assault on all your senses,
这里在上演着许多事情 你知道吗 there's so much going on, you know?
我真的很喜欢它 I love it so, so much.
东京是我最爱的城市之一 It's one of my favourite cities in the whole world.
但是 我也... But I'm also...
稍微有点儿不安 sort of slightly apprehensive
因为我确定 我将会碰到那些 because I'm sure I'm going to stumble across people who
心安理得去剥削儿童的人 think it's OK to exploit kids.
在过去的数十年中 For decades,
日本作为世界上最富有 最强大的国家之一 one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world
却在儿童色情作品上有着严重的问题 has had a serious issue with child pornography.
关于儿童的色情图片 Sexualised images of children
遍布大街小巷 成为了一种流行文化 are everywhere in popular culture.
近年 日本才终于认识到 It's only very recently that Japan finally accepted
是时候做出改变了 that it might be time for change.
所以 在2014年 So, in 2014,
日本决定 把收藏有儿童色情作品 they decided that they should make it illegal
定为违法行为 to possess child pornography,
凡是传播 出版 贩卖儿童色情作品都是违法行为 so it was illegal to distribute it and produce it, sell it,
但是 you know, but...
存在电脑上看却没有问题 to have it on your laptop and watch it was no problem.
我真的觉得 Which I find
这非常不可思议 truly astonishing.
我觉得问题非常严重 令人担忧 I find that so, so remarkable, and really quite worrying
他们这么迟才开始行动 that it took them this long.
这项法律已经实行了两年 The law has been in force for two years,
现在我来这看看是否起到了作用 and I'm here to see if it's had any effect,
人们对于儿童和性的观念 是否有所改变 and if attitudes towards children and sex have changed.
当你一到日本 When you arrive in Japan,
迎面扑来的 one of the things that smacks you in the face
是人们对一切可爱事物的痴迷 is their obsession with everything cute.
广告牌上都是大眼睛的卡通人物 Huge, doe-eyed characters on big, neon signs
遍布东京的大街小巷 are on every street corner in Tokyo,
她们还可以成为一切产品的代言人 and used to sell everything
从音乐到内衣 from music to used underwear.
最常见的就是身着校服的女学生 One of the most common is the schoolgirl in uniform.
这种现象被叫做joshi kousei 或者JK it's a phenomenon called joshi kousei, or JK.
意思就是"女子高中生" 这是一个庞大的产业 It means "high school girl", and it's big business.
谢谢 Arigato.
这条街别名叫做JK街或者女学生街 This street is nicknamed JK - or Schoolgirl - Alley.
身着校服的年轻女性 Teenage girls in school uniforms
沿街招揽顾客 stand on the street, touting for business.
来看看这些女孩儿 So look at this girl.
这有两个人 穿着夹克 这是她们的校服 There are two, in their blazers, their school uniforms.
男人给她们钱 就能和她们拉拉手 散散步 Men pay to hold hands, go for a walk,
或者喝杯咖啡 or have a cup of coffee.
只要价钱合适 他们还可以躺在姑娘的腿上睡觉 For the right price, they can even sleep on a girl's lap.
这些应该是合法的 It's all supposed to be above board and legal.
我想和这些女生谈谈 I want to talk to one of these JK girls.
请问可以给我看看你的传单吗 Can I just see your leaflet, is it possible?
哦 不好意思 Oh, so sorry.
不要拍
哦 好的 这不是拍你们的 这没问题 No, that's OK - we won't shoot you, that's no problem.
看起来 这些女孩还有保镖 It looks like these girls have minders.
别推我了行吗 Can you stop pushing me?
她们不想被拍
我希望你把刚才拍的视频全部删掉
我们不会删除任何视频的 We're not going to erase any footage,
因为我们并没有违法 because we haven't broken the law in any way.
我要叫警察 在这等会儿
现在我身后这个小伙子正在给警察打电话 So, basically, the lad behind me is on the phone to the police!
呃 Erm...
叫警察来能怎么样 我不清楚 Quite what he thinks they can do, I'm not sure,
因为这是在大街上 because this is a public road.
他们现在就在这儿呢 请快点儿过来
几分钟之后 另一个男人出现了 A couple of minutes later, another man shows up.
过来 去找警察
不 不 不 你们干什么 No, no, no! What are you doing?!
警察 去警察局
不 不 不 别推她 No, no, no. Don't... Don't push her.
去警察局找警察
别推她 别推她 别推她 Don't push her. Don't push her. Don't push her.
别 别推她 Don't... Don't push her!
我们去警察局
如果你再碰我一下 If you touch me one more time,
好好好好好
我就投诉你 I'm going to complain about you.
走走走
去警察那
停 Stop...
警察 警察 警察
你为什么老碰我 我可没碰你 Why do you keep touching me? I'm not touching you!
在警察来之前 这些人一直不肯放我们走 These guys won't let us go before the police arrive.
你为什么跟着我 What are you doing following me?
让开 Get out the way.
可笑 Ridiculous!
我不想进局子 I don't fancy sitting in a cell.
那些人让我们把拍的片子删了 The guy's asking to erase the footage.
不 呃 No. Erm...
尽管我们没有违反法律 警察到来之后 Despite having broken no law, when the police arrive
好像站在了他们那边 they seem to be taking their side.
请把你刚才拍的都删掉 你可以拍点别的
两个小时后
在之前的两个小时 我一直被警察控制着 So, I've just been kept by the police for the past two hours.
他们非法扣押我们 They held us against our will.
他们不让我们走 You know, they would not let us go.
真让人奇怪 警察也觉得是我们 Amazingly, the police seemed to think we were the ones
做错了 doing something wrong,
而不是那些控制着 and not the guys who appeared to be controlling
一群小女生的人 a group of vulnerable teenage girls.
那些成年男子 他们威胁我 Those grown men, they intimidated me
我都已经快30岁了 I'm nearly 30 years old.
我是个坚强的女性 I'm a strong woman.
所以 如果他们真的和那些女孩有关 So, if they do have a relationship with these girls
她们...她们有些看起来都不到18岁 you know, they looked... certainly under 18, some of them.
正处于易受外界影响的年龄 I'm sure they're quite impressionable.
这些女孩很容易被操控 They'd be very easy to manipulate.
如果让她们去做一些 You know, and if they asked them to do something
她们不愿意做的事情 that they didn't want to do,
我真不知道她们有没有勇气说不 I don't know how confident they'd feel to say no.
我下定决心再去挖掘一些 I'm determined to find out more about
与女学生有关的交易 this schoolgirl business.
有人告诉我 I've been told that
在日本 有300多家专门做这种生意的JK咖啡厅 there are 300 specialist JK cafes in Japan.
很明显 这些女孩年龄差不多在15岁 Essentially, they've got girls as young as 15,
都是些上高中的女孩 在这些咖啡厅里面工作 so, genuine high school girls, working in these cafes,
有成年男性进去 买上一杯啤酒 and then adult men go in, pay for a beer,
然后和这些女孩聊天儿 and have a chat with these kids.
据估计 有差不多5000个女学生 It's estimated that 5,000 schoolgirls
在这种合法的咖啡厅里工作 work in these legal cafes.
我不知道这是否只是无伤大雅的消遣方式 So, I don't know whether or not they're harmless fun,
他们也许是孤独 想找人聊聊天儿 and the guys are quite lonely, and they just fancy a chat,
还是醉翁之意不在酒 or whether they're a bit more exploitative, and a bit more sinister.
其中有一家咖啡馆允许我们进去拍摄 One of the cafes has agreed to let us film.
在这个咖啡馆里 In this bar,
你可以花35英镑选一个女孩儿陪你聊40分钟 £35 will get you 40 minutes with a girl of your choice,
还有免费啤酒 and free booze.
最让我感到吃惊的就是这些女孩儿和客人之间的 What strikes me straight away is the age gap
巨大的年龄差 between the girls and their customers.
有一些人甚至还一次叫多个女孩 Some even pay for more than one girl at a time.
你们今天都说了点儿什么 What have you guys been talking about today?
主要就是男男女女的那些事儿
你认为这些顾客怎么样 How do you like this customer?
他有点笨笨的 但是我喜欢
你们会经常谈论一些和性有关的话题吗 How often is the conversation sexual?
不时会谈
我们谈过对吧
有时候谈
但不总是说这个
好 好 OK, OK.
这个顾客好像对我的问题都不太开心 This customer doesn't seem happy with the questions I'm asking.
你所谓的年龄差和我们所认识的是不同的
她认为有洛丽塔情节的男人都很恶心
说实话 我并不关心你多大年龄了 To be honest with you, I don't really care how old you are,
因为很明显 你比这些女孩儿 because anybody can see that you are significantly older
要大很多 所以我并不是在诬陷你 than these girls, so it's not about stitching you up.
我感兴趣的是 你为什么愿意花时间 I'm interested in finding out why you prefer spending time
与这些年轻女孩聊天 而不是与你年龄相仿的女人 with younger girls, as opposed to women your own age.
对于你来说理解起来很困难 但是对于我们日本人来说就比较好理解
年龄差的问题可能会让很多人厌恶
但在日本 这就是我们的文化
我们对待性的态度有点不同
格里是这家咖啡馆的常客 Gerry is one of the cafe's regulars.
你喜欢这里的什么 What do you like about it?
这很便宜
我可以和很多年轻小妹妹聊天
嗯... Well...
我最喜欢的是她
但是她太火了
所以很难叫
你为什么最喜欢她 Why is she your favourite?
因为她开车技术好
但是她装得纯纯的
因为她穿着校服 She is obviously wearing a school uniform.
你是怎么想的呢 What do you think of that?
穿校服的女生
很漂亮
听起来有点疯狂
你认为她是可爱 还是性感呢 Do you think that she looks cute, or do you think that she looks sexy?
她也很性感啊
既可爱又性感 Cute and sexy.
你觉得这两者有区别吗
可爱和性感
-有 -是吗？ - Yes. - Yes?
我觉得我侄女是可爱 安吉丽娜·朱莉是性感 I think my niece is cute, and I think Angelina Jolie is sexy.
好吧 OK...
我个人并不喜欢把一个孩子说成性感 For me, I don't feel comfortable calling a child sexy.
- 好吧 我明白了 － 嗯 - Oh, OK, I see what you mean. - Yeah.
她会让你勃起吗 Does she give you an erection sometimes?
不 不会
不能吗 No?
她很漂亮 但她太小了
都能当我女儿了
- 你明白我的意思吗 - 我知道 - Ah, you know what I mean? - Yeah.
她没成年 和她发生关系是违法的
是的 That's correct.
所以回答是不能
但当她18岁后 But when she turns 18,
你会想和她上床或者谈恋爱吗 then, would you like to maybe have sex with her, or a relationship?
会 我会娶她
她会为我生孩子
格里再三说明 这仅仅是一种幻想 Gerry assures me that it's all just a fantasy,
但他作为一名50岁的男人 but he's a 50-year-old man
竟然痴迷女高中生 lusting after his favourite high school girl.
这家JK咖啡店里 我问过的女生中无一例外都是在校学生 All the girls I spoke to in this cafe really are still at school.
格里最喜欢的女生叫乃亚 她17岁 Gerry's favourite, Noa, is 17,
她利用课余时间在这里工作一年多了 and she's been working here in between lessons for over a year.
我和很多人聊过天 这算是一种生活体验
打开了新世界的大门
你的顾客大概都是多大年龄 And how old are your customers, typically?
大多数是30到40多岁
这么说 有些人够当你的父亲了 So, some of them are old enough to be your father?
哈哈有些是的
有些人比我父亲年纪还大
你们聊天时会涉及到性吗 Is the conversation ever sexual?
有些顾客会谈到
他们会告诉我今天有没有滚床单
比如他们会说 我今天做了
可以说这个嘛 我不知道我可以说什么欸
好尴尬
顾客向你提出上床的频率有多大 How often do the customers proposition you?
他们会不会对你说 How often do they say,
“我们不要干聊天吧” "Please may we do more than just talk?"
有人会的
我们不能与顾客在咖啡店以外的地方见面
这是违反规定的
我一向遵守规定
乃亚看起来非常单纯 这可能是为什么 Noa seems so innocent, but that's probably why
她是这家咖啡馆里最受欢迎的女生之一 she's one of the most popular girls in this cafe.
她漂亮可爱 分寸拿捏妥当 She's pretty, cute, and knows how to be coy
知道如何取悦这里的顾客 perfect for pleasing the men who come here.
耶 谢谢 Yay! Thank you!
谢谢 Thank you. Arigato.
这些JK咖啡馆在日本是完全合法的 These JK cafes are perfectly legal
这些男性似乎完全不觉得他们的行为有什么问题 the men seem completely unashamed of what they're doing.
但是在我看来 这些女学生明显是 But in my mind, these young girls are clearly employed
用以满足性欲的商业工具 as objects of sexual desire.
我们得知道这种现象反映了什么样的日本文化 You have to ask what this says about Japanese culture.
我觉得 对于18岁以上的女性 I don't have an issue with women who are over 18,
只要她们自己愿意卖身取悦男性 and have given their consent, selling themselves,
做任何她们想做的事 都没有问题 entertaining men, doing whatever they want to do,
因为是她们自己的身体 because it's their body.
但那个女孩只有15岁 是未成年人 That girl's 15 years old, so she's a minor.
我觉得 这些男人都喝得醉醺醺的 I mean, most of these men are quite pissed.
这里不是一个15岁女孩该待的场所 I just don't think it's a healthy space for a 15-year-old to be.
而且 一想到四五十岁的男人 And the fact that she's got some 40, 50-something-year-old man
在挑逗她 leering over her...
我就浑身起鸡皮疙瘩 just doesn't... Doesn't sit well with me, personally.
在日本 30岁以下的年轻人中有近一半 Nearly half of Japan's under-30-year-olds
没有稳定的工作 父母是他们的经济来源 don't have regular work, and rely on their parents for money.
所以对于这些在JK咖啡馆打工的女孩子来说 So, for these JK girls,
这是一种赚零钱的方法 this is one way to earn some cash.
我想采访一家 I wanted to speak to an official organisation
保护未成年女性的官方组织 looking out for the welfare of these girls,
但日本政府似乎并没有设立 but it seems the government has no child protection agencies
涉及JK行业的未成年人保护机构 proactively dealing with JK exploitation.
在东京市郊 In a suburb of Tokyo,
我找到了一家很小的非政府组织 I tracked down one small non-government organisation
这家组织为弱势女高中生群体 that runs a drop-in centre, helpline and shelter
设立了一个随时提供帮助和庇护的中心 for vulnerable high school girls.
你是何时产生轻生的想法的
该项目的创立者叫立花纯 Jun Tachibana set up the project
她想通过这个组织填补对年轻女孩提供帮助的空白 to fill the gap in getting young girls the help they need.
好的 Ah, OK.
你和老师说过了 是吗
我让纯详细说说日本人对女学生的狂热 I hoped Jun could explain more about Japan's schoolgirl fetish.
我们有这种喜欢小女孩的文化
女孩们自己也知道她们的青春是有价值的
我觉得挺可悲
女孩们知道穿JK可以让她们受到关注
但这些成年男性更圆滑世故
会让事情发展超出女孩子的初衷
甚至能把她推进火坑
有些人想深入地与女孩交往
做更多越界的事情
比如拍下并公开她的照片
在违背她意愿的情况下拥抱她 跟踪她
这些都有可能发生
但她们知道JK是她们这个年纪的标签 处于花季的她们会大受欢迎
有些女孩不会把校服扔掉
因为她们想把自己打扮成高中生
这 这太奇葩了 It's... It's all just so bizarre.
是的
纯认为 许多进入JK行业的女生 Jun believes that many girls that enter this world
并不知道她们可能会走上卖淫的道路 don't realise that it could be a gateway to prostitution.
涩谷 Shibuya.
喜欢音乐 时尚 美食的 The hit place to hang out if you're young, into music,
年轻人聚集地 fashion and food.
这里光怪陆离 It's like you don't know what to look at,
人声鼎沸 you don't know what to listen to
让人不知所措 you don't know when to walk!
纯说 涩谷还是皮条客诱拐女学生 And according to Jun, it's also a hunting ground
进入色情行业的猎场 for recruiters trying to entice schoolgirls into the sex industry.
你好 Konnichiwa!
她邀请我加入她团队的 She's asked me to join her and her team
日常巡逻 on one of their regular city patrols.
今晚我们打算去哪 And what's the plan for tonight - where are we going?
我们会在涩谷中心转一转
今天是星期天 如果你们看到穿制服的女孩
就问问她今晚在这儿做什么
他们打算帮助 They try to reach out to girls
那些可能被皮条客引诱的女孩 who might be susceptible to the recruiters.
我觉得团队接近女孩的方式挺随意的 And I think it's quite casual, the approach.
就上去和女孩搭讪 They'll just have a chat
“你们好 在做什么呀” "How are you guys? What are you up to?"
他们不想让女孩觉得他们在指责她们 I think they don't want to come across as being too finger-wagging,
这样女孩就不会听他们的话 because then the girls won't listen to them
反而转身离开 they won't entertain them, and they'll go away.
我很感兴趣她会找哪个女生 See, I'm interested to see who she goes for,
我自己完全没头绪 because I wouldn't have a clue.
这里真的有很多很多 You know, there are thousands and thousands and thousands
很多女孩子 of young girls.
去年 纯的组织对遇到困难的3000多名女生 Last year, Jun's organisation offered counselling and support
提供了咨询和帮助 to over 3,000 girls in trouble.
纯不仅要留意女孩 还要观察那些不怀好意的男性 And Jun has to keep her eyes peeled for the guys as well as the girls.
我去去就回
纯显然已经找到了目标 Jun's clearly seen someone that she wants to have a chat with
一个或者一群她觉得弱势的女生 or a group of girls who she thinks are vulnerable.
你对她说了什么 What did you say to her?
我说 那个刚才走近你的男人问了你什么
她说 我很好 于是我只好说 你没事就好
我也没法多问
纯 说说你怎么锁定目标的 So, Jun, explain to me how you decide who to approach.
凭感觉吧
我会选那些看起来很孤单或者漫无目的地游荡的女孩
为什么东京会有这么多孤单的女孩 Why do you think there are so many lonely young girls here in Tokyo?
在日本 有些社会问题很突出
比如教育 家庭矛盾 经济困难
这些都影响女孩们的身心发展
这种压力在最弱势的群体中尤为突出
这些人无法表达出他们的想法
比如儿童和少女
纯的一名同事有被拉皮条的亲身经历 One of Jun's colleagues knows first-hand how the recruiters work.
他们会迎合你的需求 所以女孩子会把他们当作好人
你自己有过被盯上过 是吗 And you yourself, you were scouted, right?
有个人过来跟我搭讪说一起喝杯咖啡吧
然后他就推荐了一份工作
问我有没有做过类似的工作
那他给你提供了什么样的工作呢 And what was that job - what did he offer you?
服务小姐
那些人 And the guys that you got involved with
有问你要不要进入色情行业工作吗 did they ever ask you to work in the sex industry?
有的会
对他们来说 色情行业更赚钱
但我没做
我只是当了服务小姐
在她告诉我这些 Having first-hand experience of how intimidating
马路边的皮条客有多可怕后 the men working on the streets can be,
我想知道这位前服务小姐有没有 I wonder if this ex-hostess can tell me if there's something darker
更黑暗的内幕 going on behind the scenes.
我后来发现
这些给我推荐工作的人与Yakuza有关
我是后来才发现的
Yakuza指日本黑帮集团 The Yakuza is Japan's organised crime syndicate.
幸运的是 这个女孩遇到了纯 Luckily, this young girl met Jun,
渐渐退出了服务小姐的工作 and gradually stopped working as a hostess.
许多日本人认为JK行业带来了一系列不良影响 Many people here think the JK industry has a lot to answer for,
包括物化女学生和为性交易提供渠道 from objectifying schoolgirls, to being a gateway to the sex trade.
我约见了一名17岁的女高中生 她还是一名妓女 I've arranged to meet a 17-year-old JK girl who is also a prostitute.
卖淫在日本是违法的 Prostitution itself is illegal here in Japan,
所以你是如何避开这个问题的呢 so how do you get around that?
我在一个"流动"咖啡馆工作
为了不被捉 伪装成了咖啡馆
但顾客和女孩可以私下约到店外见面
男人付钱买你的时间 The guy will pay to spend time with you,
这段时间内由你决定要做什么 是吗 and it's up to you what you do with him within that time?
是的
你一周在那儿工作几个晚上呢 So, how many nights a week are you working there?
我平时上学 所以一周工作2到3次
你接待不同男性的频率多高 How often are you having sex with different men?
如果很抢手的话 一天可以接待5到6人
天呐 Wow.
你受欢迎吗 And are you popular?
是的 所以我一天接待5到6人
然后你是一周工作2到3晚吗 And you're doing two or three nights a week?
对 一周15到18人
因为我是未成年人
所以我一次能拿3万(212镑)到
6万(424镑)日元
因为你是未成年 所以他们要多付钱吗 So they'll pay more because you're younger?
对 因为是违法的
所以会更贵
表面上 她很喜欢也擅长她的工作 On the surface, she seems confident and happy with what she's doing,
但我们的谈话逐渐深入时 我了解到背后的真相 but as we continue to talk, I get the real story.
来接客的女孩要么有家庭矛盾 要么很寂寞空虚
当然还有些人是为了攒学费
而我可能是因为想要自残吧
呃 Erm...
能说说吗 为什么要自残 Tell me a bit more about that - why?
就是想要自杀
有轻生的念头
你有抑郁症吗 Do you suffer with depression?
是的 有一次还住院了
因为太想自杀
2016年 联合国发布的一份针对买卖儿童 In 2016, a United Nations report on the sale of children,
儿童卖淫和儿童色情作品行业的报告中 child prostitution and child pornography
严重批评了日本政府 heavily criticised the Japanese government's approach
对待JK行业的方式态度 to the JK industry.
联合国要求日本政府 The UN recommended the Japanese government
加大解决这一问题的力度 保护未成年受害者 do more to tackle the problem, and protect its child victims.
截至2014年 人们仍然可以大摇大摆地走进色情商店 Until 2014, you could still walk into some porn shops,
购买儿童色情作品 并不用担心被抓 and buy child pornography with no fear of arrest.
而现在这已经是完全非法的了 Now it's completely illegal,
我想看看这条新法律的效果到底如何 I want to see what effect the new law has had.
她还穿着校服 She's in her school uniform.
看这个 你一走进色情商店 Look at this - one of the first images you see
就能看到这种图片 as you approach the porn shop.
他们想把背景弄成教室的样子 They've tried to make this look like a classroom
她的内裤已经脱到腿上了 she's got her knickers halfway down her legs.
这个女孩有可能刚过18岁 You know, and it might be that she is just over 18 years old,
但我感觉他们是故意要把她 but it seems to me like they've deliberately tried to make her
打扮成更小的样子 look far younger.
如果你说她不到10岁 我也会相信 If you told me she was under ten, I'd believe you.
我理解色情商店需要迎合顾客的各种口味 'I get that porn shops have to cater for every taste out there,
但是我没想到 商店里有很大一片区域 but I wasn't quite expecting the large section
是专门为那些叫做萝莉控的男人准备的 catering for men into what's called lolicon.
萝莉控是一个日本词 它描述的是 Lolicon is the Japanese term used to describe a sexual attraction
青春期少女的性吸引 to pubescent girls.
你觉得她看起来多大 How old does she look to you? Now...
她看起来像刚上学的样子 She looks like she's getting ready for school.
这太荒诞了 It's so surreal!
这些影碟上都标着 模特的年龄是18岁 So, on both of these DVDs, it states that the models are 18,
但是我觉得她们看起来只有10岁 despite the fact they look about ten to me.
他们还在封面上 And they've put rainbows and childlike animation
放满了彩虹和儿童动漫 all over the front of the cover.
这些竟然全部都是合法的 And this is all totally legal, it's totally legit.
这些东西并不违反日本法律 There's nothing wrong with this whatsoever in Japanese law.
这些影碟的目标群体很明确 There's clearly a target audience
购买者渴望看到的 是看起来像未成年的成年女性 that are desperate to see adult women that look like children.
这一事实无可否认 因为我就站在证据面前 You can't deny that fact, because I'm stood here in front of them.
理论上来说 有明文的法律规定 So in theory, on paper, it's illegal to possess child porn,
制作 传播以及私藏儿童色情作品都是违法的 distribute it and produce it,
但是看看这些图片和影碟 but when you look at some of the images and some of the videos,
我觉得日本政府做的还不够 I don't really think they've done enough
他们并没有完全改变这种思维模式 也没有解决根本的问题 to completely change the mind-set, to really deal with the issue.
所以 那种嗜好还在 依旧有需求和市场 So, the appetite's still there - there's still that demand.
当然 擦边球的色情作品全世界都有 Of course, borderline pornography exists all over the world,
但是我想知道的是 but I wanted to find out
最近出台的 禁止真正的儿童色情制品的法令 whether the recent ban on genuine child pornography
在这个国家究竟有没有得到很好的实施 is being properly enforced in this country.
我马上要和小西康博见面 I'm meeting Yasuhiro Konishi
-我是史黛丝 -你好 - I'm Stacey. - Hello.
国家警察局青少年部部长 head of the juvenile section at the National Police Agency.
关于打击儿童色情作品的问题
我们认为儿童色情作品是对人权的严重侵犯
我希望日本给其他国家留下的
在儿童性剥削这一问题上态度不够强硬的印象 能有所改变
听起来不错 Sounds good.
我觉得 我应该先说清楚 I mean, I should be clear, you know...
没有比我更热爱日本的人了 nobody loves Japan more than me.
我十分喜欢东京 但是你要知道 I absolutely adore Tokyo, but, you know, this...
性化和物化儿童 真的很病态 sexualising and objectifying kids is just so unhealthy,
我认为这不是用文化差异 and I don't think you can ever just write it off
就能一笔带过的事情 as a cultural difference
我们必须正视这种行为的本质 I think we have to call it out for what it is
这就是虐待儿童 必须制止这种行为 it's child abuse, and it must be stopped.
或者你们必须明确这种行为的性质 Or you must certainly try to make sure that that's the case.
日本有一个叫JK的产业
我们已经开始竭力打击这一产业
因为我们认为这一产业
可能是性犯罪的温床
关于JK行业 你们未来有什么打算 Tell me as much as you can about your future plans
请尽可能多告诉我一些信息 with regards to the JK business.
我们的计划是
18岁以下的孩子
不允许接待客人
不允许招揽生意
我们想以这种方式规范这个行业
如果他们违反了规定 将会面临制裁
哇 Wow.
那就意味着真正彻底的改变 That would mean real, genuine change,
因为那些女孩大多数都刚到15或16岁 because a lot of the girls at the minute are 15, 16 years old.
我们也希望能带来大改变
2014年的修正案规定 The 2014 amendment
私藏儿童色情作品是非法的 means it's now illegal to possess child pornography.
对那些违反这项法律的人进行惩罚 How much of a priority is it for you to ensure
是你们优先处理的工作吗 that those who are breaking the law are punished?
我们正努力使新法律落到实处
现在是主要任务 那这是你们的当务之急吗 It's now a main priority - it's very high on your agenda?
我觉得可以这样说
我能给你看一些数据吗
当然 我很想知道数据的情况 Please do, yeah - I'd love to hear some figures.
全国已有37例案子接受了公审
在2015年6月14日到2016年6月之间
说实话 我认为 37个并不多 To me, 37 isn't impressive - I have to be honest with you.
和许多其他国家相比 这简直是沧海一粟 In comparison to many other countries, it's a drop in the ocean.
你承认这个吗 Do you accept that?
我不太了解
其他国家是怎么样的
和日本比起来
只是想让你稍微了解一下 Well, just to give you a tiny, tiny idea,
我带来了一些数据 I've brought some numbers.
我看过皇家检控署的网页 So, I had a look on the website for the Crown Prosecution Service,
上面写道 英国在2015到2016年 so, back in the UK, 2015-2016,
因私藏儿童色情制品逮捕了超过5000人 there were 5,000-plus arrests for possession,
这5000人中 481人被判有罪 481 found guilty of the 5,000.
这要比日本多得多 Considerably more.
你觉得在日本 Why do you think that, here in Japan,
这项法律为什么不能很好地执行呢 you are unable to always enforce the law?
我不知道我们两个国家间的
调查方法是否有所不同
日本当局的问题在于 The problem for Japanese authorities
他们发现儿童色情影像之后 is that, when they find an abusive image,
需要确认其中的儿童确实未成年 they need to identify the child and confirm they're underage.
如果想让调查继续进行 In order for the investigation to proceed,
受害者必须提出控告 a victim must bring charges.
只有在证据显示犯罪嫌疑人确实犯罪的情况下 An arrest will only be made if the evidence against the perpetrator
才能定罪 can guarantee a conviction.
不幸的是 恋童癖世界各地都有 Paedophilia exists, unfortunately, everywhere, all over the world,
包括我的国家 my country included.
我们有这种问题 We have an issue,
而且羞愧的是 至今未找到好的方法 and it's shameful that we haven't found a way
来保护我们的儿童 to protect all of our children,
但是在我的国家 我们都知道这种行为是不可接受的 But back at home, we're saying this is not acceptable,
我们对这种行为严加惩治 惩戒了更多的人 and we are making an example of far more people
相比而言 你们的力度太小了 than you seem to be doing here.
你明白了问题所在吗 Do you see that?
听起来可能像是我们在找借口
但我们已经竭尽所能了
尽可能防止了儿童受到伤害
尽早把受害者解救出来
警察局说他们主要逮捕的是那些 The police say they focus on arresting people
制作儿童色情作品的人 who produce child pornography,
已经逮捕超过1000人 and have made over 1,000 arrests,
但是私藏儿童色情作品的 只定罪了37例 but with only 37 convictions for possession nationally,
我真的希望他们加大执法力度 I seriously hope they plan to do more.
这个问题现在已经迫在眉睫了 There needs to be this real sense of urgency now.
法案已经出台 法律已经改变 There's been this amendment, they've changed the law
私藏儿童色情作品现在已经是非法的了 it's no longer acceptable to possess child pornography,
所以更需要杀鸡儆猴 so you need to make an example of all of these people
那些仍在观看这种变态的儿童色情作品的人们 who are desperate to still watch this explicit, horrific,
才能得到警醒 abusive pornography.
我认为 日本对于儿童性行为的态度问题 For me, the problem with Japan's attitude to child sex
要比非法儿童色情作品严重得多 goes far deeper than illegal child pornography.
今天早上 我来到了宁静的东京郊区 This morning, I'm in a sleepy suburb of Tokyo,
正前往一个拍摄地 他们正在拍Chaku Ero(色情写真) heading to a photo shoot for something called Chaku Ero.
进门的时候 我感觉自己走进了音乐课的课堂 As I arrive, it feels like I've walked into a music lesson.
竖笛在这里是很有暗示意味的 The recorder feels quite suggestive.
明显的女学生 So school-girly.
我十二三岁的时候也吹过竖笛 I mean, I used to play the recorder when I was, what - 12, 13?
Chaku ero的意思是"穿着色情的" Chaku ero means "erotically clothed."
因为模特从不全裸出镜 Because models are never fully naked,
所以能拍各个年龄的儿童 it can involve children of any age.
很好
摄制团队的每个人都不愿透露身份 Everyone working behind the camera has asked not to be identified,
他们愿意让我进来的原因是 and they've only allowed me in because today's model,
今天的模特19岁了 她只是打扮成女学生 emulating a schoolgirl, is 19 years old.
对于小女孩来说 重点是表现她们的可爱而不是性感
一旦到了18或19岁
就变成又可爱又性感了
你认为成年男人为什么 Why do you think grown adult men
那么喜欢看这些年纪很小的女孩 are desperate to watch these very young girls?
有一些男人喜欢年纪小的孩子
因为她们年轻而且可爱
所以他们想要看脱了衣服的样子
我好像给你带来麻烦了 I'm going to get you into trouble,
因为他们已经过来了两次 想让我停止交谈 because they've been round twice telling me to stop talking,
所以我觉得你可能得回去工作了 so I think you need to go back to work
Chaku ero模特 Chaku ero models
将这个工作视为获得名利的敲门砖 see this work as a stepping stone to fame and fortune,
但是有人告诉我 but I've been told it's the producers
制作人赚的才是大头 who see the really big bucks.
顾客喜欢Chaku ero 可以幻想
你可以称之为"处女情结"
她们越年轻 看起来就越像处女
今天拍摄的制作人同意和我交谈一下 The producer of today's shoot has agreed to talk to me,
但是希望匿名进行 but wants to remain anonymous.
大约二十年前
男人是可以和18岁以下的女孩发生性关系的
然而 法律变得越来越严格了
也越来越难
与未成年的女孩发生关系
所以 Chaku Ero变成了一种替代品
你说的这些男人都是恋童癖 These men you're describing are paedophiles
他们喜欢儿童 而不是年轻的女人 而是儿童 they like children, not young women, children.
我想 在日本有很多人都是"萝莉控"
我们的运营并没有违反法律
所以我认为这就是生意而已
你拍摄的年纪最小的女孩是几岁 How young has your youngest girl been, that you've filmed?
最小的是六岁
你要求 And what did you
这个六岁的小孩做了什么 你是如何引导一个小孩的 ask the six-year-old to do - how do you direct a child?
我们给她买了很多玩具来引导
然后这个小女孩穿着泳装一边玩玩具 我们一边拍 就这样
她的妈妈站在照相机后面 拿着她最喜欢的娃娃
所以小女孩就看镜头了
其实有很大可能 There's every chance
那个六岁的小女孩已经被 that six-year-old has been
一个恋童癖意淫过了 perved over by a paedophile.
从道德上讲 你怎么看 Morally, how does that sit with you?
正如我之前所说 纯粹生意而已
生意嘛
我们不知道买家是不是那种人
你有没有担心过 其实你是在支持恋童癖 Do you worry that you're playing a role in encouraging paedophilia?
Chaku Ero不露点
被拍摄者一直穿着衣服的
如你今天所见 Chaku Ero就像是
把比基尼上衣脱掉 然后用手捂住她们的胸部
算是打擦边球吧
如果她们还未成年 会穿着衣服
那就不算色情
这项生意赚钱吗 Is it a lucrative business?
不要对我说谎 告诉我实话 Don't lie to me. Tell me the truth.
有很多红了的女孩 也有不红的
比拍成年人赚得多
大概能赚多少钱 How much money are we talking?
一个六岁的小女孩 可以赚4百万(28500镑)到5百万(35500镑)日元
高中生 一百万日元(7000镑)
最火的一个女孩 我们赚了1000万日元(70000镑)
你自己有小孩吗 Do you have kids yourself?
有一个十六岁的女儿
如果你的16岁女儿 How would it make you feel
在十年前 和那个六岁的小孩 if your 16-year-old daughter had been used ten years ago
做了一样的事情 你的感受如何 in the same way that you used that six-year-old that you worked with?
实话实说 Honestly.
嗯... Mmm...
很难回答
可能听起来有点极端
但是我应该会杀了她 然后自杀
你是认真的吗 Are you serious?
是的
他 He...
完全把自己从 totally separates himself
对这些年轻的小女孩的剥削利用中 隔离了开来 from the exploitation of these young girls
对他来讲 就是彻头彻尾的生意而已 it's purely business for him, through and through.
从他身上似乎看不到 任何懊悔或同情 再或者 There doesn't seem to be any regret or remorse, or...
道德约束的力量 moral complications.
所以和他交谈收获很大 因为这为你非常 So worthwhile having that chat with him, because it just shows you very,
非常清晰地 very clearly...
展现出这个行业 how normalised...
变得多正常化了 this has all become.
围绕着Chaku Ero的灰色地带让我感到困惑 The grey area surrounding Chaku Ero has got me confused.
对我来说 暗示性的儿童照片也属于色情作品 To me, suggestively shot images of young kids are pornographic,
但是在日本法律里 并不是如此 but in the eyes of Japanese law, they're not.
但还有一些人正在努力反对 But there are some people here who are trying to challenge
性化儿童 the sexualisation of children.
-你好 -你好 - Hello! Konnichiwa! - Konnichiwa!
我正在与人权律师伊藤和子会面 I'm meeting human rights lawyer Kazuko Ito.
十分感谢您邀请我来 Thank you so much for having me.
她正在反对一项新法律 She's challenging the new law,
以及其对儿童色情作品的定义 and its definition of child pornography.
你看下商店 And the way you look at the shops,
以及互联网 and the way that you look at the internet,
像是 图像或者视频 you know, pictures or video,
真的很像儿童色情 which really look like child pornography,
在日本随处可见 are everywhere in Japan.
这些 正如我们看到的 These, as we can see...
这些孩子 可能还是初中生 说真的 These children, it means junior high school student and there it said
-她十五岁 -她看起来非常小 对吧 - she is 15 years old. Yes. - She looks so, so young, right?
是的 所以这是一个儿童 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is a child.
她穿着泳装或者别的衣物 但她是半裸了 She's wearing some swimming suit or something, but she's halfway naked.
制片公司则认为 她身上的关键部位 像是 The production company says the most important part of her, like,
胸部 生殖器 都被遮盖了 所以没问题 breasts, or genitals, are covered, so that is OK.
那不是儿童色情 That is not child pornography.
-所以这是Chaku Ero吗 -是的 这是Chaku Ero - So is this Chaku Ero? - Yes. This is Chaku Ero.
只要Chaku Ero的儿童写真没有露出她们的 As long as Chaku Ero photos of kids don't show their naked
生殖器 臀部或者胸部 就不能被归类为儿童色情 genitals, bum or breasts, it isn't categorised as child
并且也是完全合法的 pornography and is completely legal.
天哪 Oh, my goodness!
-太恶心了 -Chaku Ero就是儿童色情作品 - That's awful. - Chaku Ero is child pornography.
-这就是日本社会的情况 -太混蛋了 - That's reality in Japan. - That's so shit.
-是的 -我认为这一页尤其恶心 - Yes. - I mean, this page is particularly disturbing for me.
这是个小女孩 我认为她绝不可能 There's a young girl here, she can't be...
超过十岁 in my opinion, any older than ten.
-确实 -最多十岁 张开双腿躺在那 - Yes. - Ten years old, max. Lying with her legs wide open.
-看那个 -我的天啊 - Look at that. - Bloody hell!
这太令人震惊了 This is so shocking.
也许还在上小学 Under elementary school, maybe.
不到六岁 Under six years old.
这幅图她穿着丁字裤样式的比基尼 There's a picture of her in a thong-like bikini
你可以看到她的臀部 真的非常令人震惊 and you can see her bum. That's really shocking.
有人带她去拍摄 也许是她的妈妈 Somebody has brought her here, whether it's her mother
或者爸爸 一位家庭成员 or her father, a family member.
他们为什么会允许这样的事情发生 Why would they allow this to happen?
因为她还不够成熟来为自己做决定 Because she's not old enough to make this decision for herself.
一些家庭太贫穷 除此之外没有别的办法 只有利用孩子 Some of the family are so poor and no way other than using children
进入这个行业赚钱 for this kind of industry.
但任何理由都不能 There's just no justification whatsoever
为这种照片辩解 for these kinds of photos.
很明显这是在虐待儿童 It's clearly abusing the children.
一个年幼的未成年人 A little minor.
一旦她意识到她经历了什么 当她成年后 Once she realises what happened to her, when she becomes adult,
又会带来什么样的精神创伤呢 you know, what kind of traumatisation is there?
需要做些什么呢 What needs to happen?
最重要的就是规范这类东西 The most important thing is to regulate this kind of thing,
就是儿童色情图片 you know, using child as a pornography image.
所以这就是对人类的剥削 So this is human exploitation.
同时 我也希望警察有更具体的方案 And I hope that the police will have more concrete plans to
来实施这项法律 implement the law itself.
对我而言 有一点是直截了当的 For me, one point is really straightforward
如果你未成年 然后被要求当模特 if you're under age and you're being asked to model and pose
以及摆出非常暗示性的姿势 事实上你就是在被利用 in a really suggestive manner, then you're being exploited.
无论是什么情况 It doesn't matter what the circumstances are.
可能是涉及金钱的 It might be financial,
也可能是父母或者孩子有野心 it might be that the parents or the kids are ambitious
我认为 就是不该被允许的 In my mind, it shouldn't be allowed.
没有任何东西像Manga(漫画)一样 形象地反映了 Nothing captures the visual landscape of
当今日本的这种现象 modern-day Japan like Manga.
这些日本漫画的国内销售总额 Domestic sales of these Japanese comics
在2015年以20亿英镑遥遥领先 topped over £2 billion in 2015.
漫画覆盖了你可以想象到的任何一个主题 Manga covers every subject you can imagine,
包括X级色情作品 including X-rated erotica.
有些还含有虐待儿童 强奸儿童 以及乱伦的场景 Some include scenes of child abuse, child rape and incest
这些漫画是如此逼真 在英国已经被禁止了 and are so graphic, they've been banned in the UK.
日本政府也试图禁止 The Japanese government have tried to ban it,
但是漫画家和出版商 but Manga artists and publishers
以言论自由为根据来捍卫它 have defended it on the grounds of free speech.
每一种类型 每一个主题 你可能想到的 Every single genre, every single subject matter you can think of is
都在漫画中以这样或那样的形式展示出来 represented in Manga in one way or another.
金光丹已经翻译了二十年日本漫画 Dan Kanemitsu has been translating Japanese Manga for 20 years.
这些是为某一种特定人群画的 Some of this has been drawn for a certain type of person,
我觉得是 I believe, I feel.
举例来说 这幅图在英国是完全不合法的 For example, this image would be totally illegal in the UK.
-可能是吧 -因为这是种畸形的漫画 - Possibly, yes. - Because you could describe it as being grotesque,
这是幅儿童图片 却加入了性的成分 it's a childlike image, taking part in a sexual act.
我觉得 She looks to me
她大概四岁 在咬着一个男人的阴毛 Four years old, she's biting the pubic hair of a man
-那个男人很明显看起来年龄大很多 -是的 - that clearly looks much older. - Right.
为什么单纯的女性角色 Why do the childlike female characters
经常要模仿小孩呢 often have to emulate toddlers and
为什么关于男性的形象 总是如此强势以及年龄大很多呢 why do the male images always have to be so dominant and far older?
强壮的男性和天真的女性的组合 The combination of the dashing male coupled with the innocent female
在日本漫画里非常常见 that is a very common motif within Japanese Manga.
我的意思是 对我而言他并不是一位强壮的男性 I mean, he doesn't look like a dashing male to me,
他看上去就像一个儿童虐待者 he looks like a child abuser.
我看不到他的脸 所以我不能辨别 I can't see his face, so I can't say.
那么 他放在她下体旁那粗糙有力的手 Well, the way he's got his grown man hand
也表明了这点 near her vagina suggests that.
这是儿童色情作品吗 Is this child pornography?
这是一个很难说清的问题 因为第一 That's a very loaded question to ask, because one,
色情作品意味着是违法的 pornography implies that it's illegal, one.
第二 儿童色情作品 至少在广义上 Two, child pornography, at least by the broader definition
最不能容忍的是 儿童卷入了其中 of what is most offensive about it, is the fact that children are involved.
－现在 －真正的儿童 －是的 - Now - Actual children. - Exactly.
所以儿童色情引起了很大的争议 因为一个是真正的儿童受到伤害 So there's a lot of debate about this, because there is a child
一个是作品中的儿童 being harmed on one hand and then there's a depiction of a child
这两者有很大的不同 being harmed and there's a big difference between the two.
在制作这些出版物的时候 没有真正的儿童会受到伤害 No actual child was harmed when they made this publication,
我完全同意 I totally accept that.
这是两码事 但是你会担心像这样的影像 They are two separate things, but do you worry that images like this
会支持或者让虐待儿童正常化吗 encourage and perhaps normalise child abuse?
一些作者会创作 Some authors will create this kind of material
涉及儿童虐待的素材 to address child abuse issues.
现在 一些人想消费这类东西 Now, some people would like to consume this kind of stuff,
因为它呈现出他们的幻想 他们想把它 because it plays out a fantasy they have and they want to keep it
与现实生活分开 所以这是一个很好的发泄途径 separate from real life, so it's a good venting mechanism.
所以你是说恋童癖或者 Ah, so you're saying that there's every chance a paedophile or
想侵害儿童的其他人 somebody, an individual who would like to abuse a child,
也许会更喜欢看这些出版物 而不是 would perhaps be tempted to look at content like this as opposed to
在真正的孩子身上实现自己的幻想 acting out his fantasy with a real child?
我不是说那不会发生 I'm not saying that doesn't happen.
但同时 有很多人喜欢这类东西 But at the same time, there are a lot of people that enjoy this kind
是因为这很荒诞 它只是一种 of stuff because it is absurd, it is just a way to...
享受禁忌之事的方式 enjoy something that can't happen.
-更具体地说 -但它的确发生了 - Let me be more specific... - But this does happen.
这就是问题所在 这的确发生了 这是一个很大的问题 That's the problem. This does happen, it's a huge issue and
这些小孩 或者现实生活中的孩子们 需要保护 不是吗 these kids, or real-life children, need protecting, right?
现实生活中的孩子们需要保护 Real-life children need protection.
漫画 Drawing...
纸上的图画不需要 Lines of ink on paper do not.
我是担心这些东西会刺激 My concern would be that this does encourage
而且让现实生活中的虐待儿童正常化 and normalise real-life child abuse.
如果你要说作品的内容可以影响人们的行为 If you start saying creations of the mind can influence people's
那么就应该是作品负责任 behaviour and those creations should be held responsible
而不是真正去侵害儿童的那些人 as opposed to the people that are actually doing them,
那是思想管制 that is thought policing.
你是说在你看来 Are you saying you can't see
这两者没有任何关系是吗 any relationship whatsoever between the two?
我不是说它们没有关系 I'm not saying there are no relationships,
我是说这两者之间有很大的不同 but there's a big difference between them.
一个是虚构的 一个是现实生活 One is fiction and one is real life.
现在 批评这类素材是完全没错的 Now, there's nothing wrong with criticising this type of material,
是完全可以的 that's perfectly fine,
但是批评和禁止应该是有很大不同的 but there should be a big difference between criticising and banning it.
你是说这些想买这些内容看上去是强奸 You're saying that it's totally acceptable for people to want to buy
甚至是轮奸幼童的出版物的人 publications where it looks like a toddler
是完全没问题的 is being raped or sometimes gang raped?
这可能会冒犯到很多人 但同时 It's offensive to many people, but at the same time,
艺术形式是一回事 it's the art style is one thing,
主题又是另一回事 and the subject matter is completely another thing.
丹 我们保留各自的不同意见吧 Dan, we'll have to agree to disagree.
-嗯 -但是我真的感谢你 感谢你这么配合 - Yes. - But I really appreciate, and you've been very thorough,
非常感谢你 so thank you ever so much.
对于我来说 性化儿童不会有任何好处 For me, there can never be any good to come out of sexualising kids.
这显然是一个非常有争议的问题 This is clearly a divisive, emotive issue, so controversial.
但他真诚地相信这可能会抑制一些冲动 But he genuinely believes that it could potentially curb any urges and
而我相信这可能会刺激他们 I believe it could potentially encourage urges.
我更希望禁止这些露骨的儿童影像 I would prefer these explicit images that use kids to be banned.
我担心他们不会满足于卡通 I worry that them cartoons will never be enough
你会有侵犯儿童的冲动 你也许会想 and you will have those urges and you will want to...
在现实生活中实现它 这是最让我害怕的 move on to the real thing, perhaps. That's what scares me.
我对于儿童色情影像 I've been shocked by how common
在日本的普遍程度很震惊 sexualised images of children are in Japan,
从JK吧里的女学生到拍软色情的小孩子 from the schoolgirls in the JK bars to the use of small children
以及奇葩的日本漫画 in soft porn and the grotesque Manga imagery.
好像整件事情已经正常化了 It seems the whole thing has become normalised.
我的担心是这一切 My worry is that all this
会为真正的恋童癖正名 could provide validation for genuine paedophiles.
我已经约好去见一个准备 I've arranged to meet a man prepared to
公开谈论自己的恋童欲望的男子 talk openly about his paedophilic desires.
所以我在等待和他谈话 So I'm waiting to have a conversation with a guy
有一个类似小孩的玩偶的男子 who has a doll and they're made to look like children.
我完全不知道会发生什么 I've absolutely no idea what to expect.
我曾经见过一个恋童癖 I've come face-to-face with a paedophile before
某种程度上你会忍不住对他们的厌恶 and your sort of overwhelming emotion towards them is hate,
老实说 if I'm totally honest.
但是憎恶某些事和某些人不能 But hating something and hating somebody isn't...
带来改变 going to cause change.
恨不能让小孩们安全 That hate doesn't keep real kids safe.
你好 Hello, konichiwa.
-你好 -请进 - Konichiwa. - Come in.
谢谢你能来 Thank you for coming.
我的天啊 Oh, my goodness me!
你的玩偶有名字吗 Does your doll have a name?
她叫穂乃果
你想象她是几岁的 How old do you imagine she is?
我想象她10岁左右
所以 你会和你的玩偶做什么 So, what do you do with your doll?
她是用来安慰我的
她一直在我的房间
我们会拥抱
做那种事情
有时会发生性关系
你们具体是怎样发生关系的 这里有个洞吗 How exactly do you have sex, is there a hole?
可以戴个套然后直接插进去
当你脱她衣服的时候 你会勃起吗 When you're taking the doll's clothes off, do you feel aroused?
可能会
你平时会在她全裸的时候和她发生关系吗 Do you normally have sex with her when she's naked?
这样很容易脏
不能洗她 因为这是个填充娃娃
如果你射在了她的衣服上 也很好清洗 If you ejaculate on the clothes, they're easier to wash.
对的
你和真正的小孩发生过关系吗 Have you had sex with real children?
没有
没有吗 No?
没有
从来没有
从来没有吗 你有过性生活吗 Not at all? Have you ever had sex at all?
没有
从来没有
从没有和人发生过吗 Never with a human?
从来没有
你想和人做爱吗 Would you like to have sex with a human being?
想
显然 你更喜欢小孩 Clearly, you prefer children.
如果这是合法的 可能的话 你会想和小孩发生关系吗 If it were possible, legally, you would want to have sex with a child?
是的我想
但是得小孩同意
还得喜欢我
这是你的目标吗 尽管事实上这是违法的 Is this your goal, despite the fact it is completely illegal?
在问我如果这个合法我是否会做的时候
你其实是觉得
这是不好的行为
举个例子 同性恋是存在的
也有同性恋不合法的国家 对吗
同样地
恋童癖也是存在的
我认为他们有明显的不同 I think there is a clear difference.
他们对脆弱的小孩没有威胁 但是恋童癖有 They don't pose a threat to vulnerable children and paedophiles do.
你同意吗 Do you accept that?
我的意思是 你对真正的孩子有威胁吗 I mean, are you a threat to real children?
首先我想说明
"恋童癖"这个词
来自'paedo' 意思是"小孩"
和'phile' 意思是"喜欢的人"
所以认为喜欢一样东西
代表具有威胁显然是错误的
对小孩子有威胁的
是那些猥亵小孩的人
恋童癖和猥亵小孩的人不一样
被恋童癖侵害的小孩 他们会谈起 Kids who have been abused by paedophiles, they talk of the
他们所经历的噩梦 这毁了他们的人生 horrors that they've been through. It ruins their lives.
这绝不是爱 It is anything but loving.
我希望社会可以接受最真实的我
如果这是一个真正的小孩 我们要发生关系
这应该我是我来做决定
会考虑到她的生理发育和她的需求
以及她是否喜欢我
你能给我解释一下 Can you explain to me...
为什么你更喜欢小孩而不是成年人 why you prefer children as opposed to adults?
当我看小孩子的时候我会看她们的胸
当我看着她们的时候 我会被平胸吸引
她们太青涩 不能生育
这种不完美是她们的吸引力之一
你觉得 你有过 Will it ever get to a point, do you think,
渴望一只真实的手 真实的声音 真实的小孩的时候吗 where you crave a real hand or a real voice, or a real child?
尽管这不是违法的
但是认识和接触一个孩子
变得越来越难了
你生活中有认识的小孩吗 Do you have any children in your life?
一个都没有
我只有在超市看见过小孩
她们只出现十几秒
所以我根本不能和她们说话
我真的很感谢你的真诚 谢谢你这么坦率 I really appreciate your honesty. Thank you for being so transparent
以及带上你的玩偶一起过来 and ta ever so much for bringing the doll along.
谢谢 Arigato.
老实说 To be totally honest with you,
我现在比刚开始的时候更加困惑 在见他之前 I feel more confused now than I did at the start, before I met him.
因为他吓到我的一件事是他 Because the thing that frightens me about him is that he doesn't even
根本不觉得他的想法是不健康的 accept that his feelings are unhealthy.
有一些恋童癖会说 我受到了折磨 There are some paedophiles that say, "I'm tortured,
我被恋童这个癖好毁了 但是我必须承认 "I'm devastated that I feel like this, but I've got to be honest,
我就是有这样的冲动 我想要得到帮助 "I do have these urges and I want help."
谢谢 Arigato.
-谢谢 -谢谢 - Thank you. - Thank you.
他站在了相反的阵营 他说 这是我的权利 He's in a camp totally opposite, saying, "This is my right,
我应该被允许和小孩发生关系 "I should be allowed to have sex with a child
是社会在批判我 "and society are judging me.
你们错了 我是对的 "You've got it wrong and I've got it right."
在和他待了一段时间后 You know, I've spent a couple of hours with him,
我不能绝对地说 so I can't categorically say...
他人怎么样 他真正能做什么 who he truly is and what he's truly capable of.
如果我有一个孩子 我会让他单独留在房间里吗 Would I leave him in a room alone, if I had a child?
永远不会 Not in a million years.
我在日本的行程快要结束了 My time in Japan is coming to an end.
离开之前 我碰见了藤原志帆子 Before I leave, I meet up with Shihoko Fujiwara.
她正在游说政府 She's been lobbying the government
停止对儿童的性剥削 to end the sexual exploitation of children.
我们有商业化 We have this history of commercialising
和性化儿童的历史 我认为这还在变严重 and sexualising children and I think it's getting worse and worse.
像这样已经很长时间了 It's been like this for a long time.
-真的吗 -是的 - Really, it has? - Yes.
这种心理在日本一直存在吗 This mentality has always existed here in Japan?
据我所知 像这样已经20年了 As far as I know, it's been like this for the last 20 years.
你认为日本有人知道或者完全理解 Do you think some people here in Japan know or fully understand
性化以及物化小孩是完全错误的吗 that sexualising children and objectifying kids is fundamentally wrong?
你认为他们会真的觉得这是可以的吗 Do you think sometimes they genuinely think it's OK?
这是虐待小孩 不仅是15 16岁的 What's happening is abuse and it's not only 15, 16,
我们见过3岁 2岁 8岁的受害者 we are seeing three years old, two years old, eight years old,
我不得不说 being abused. I have to say,
这个问题不是日本领导人优先考虑的事 this issue hasn't been a priority for Japanese leaders.
这让人感到羞愧 It's so, so shameful, that, you know,
儿童的安全不是优先考虑的事 children's safety is not a priority.
我不认为仅是禁止儿童色情作品就够了 I don't think banning child pornography is enough,
我认为这是好的 是最基本的 但是我们还需要做更多 I think that's good, that's basic, but we need to do more, you know
这需要颠覆人们的思想 There needs to be a total shift within people's minds.
-是的 -你可以通过法律 禁止这些事情 - Yes. - You can pass laws, you can make things illegal,
但是你不能进入人们的大脑 关上开关 but you can't go inside people's brains and turn off a switch.
我们真的需要努力推动社会 让大家 We really need to push the society harder to, you know, let people
理解并且一致认同 understand and make it consensus that
不能物化我们自己的孩子 you can't commercialise our own children and,
为了这样做 我们需要媒体运动 to do so, we need a media campaign,
我们需要许多政治支持 we need lots of political will.
是的 这让人大开眼界 肯定的 Yes, it's been an eye-opener, for sure.
-是的 -我在这里学到了很多 - Yes. - I've learnt so much, being here.